Question For Pennsylvania Agents

I have enjoyed the exchange, even though opinions differ. I enjoy reading the thought process and reading coherently written thoughts, it is quite refreshing.

That said, listen to Marshall Grasshopper, it will keep you out of where he used to work

Scott

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R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

Scott, I feel it did become a good discussion and my ears and eyes are always open to not only new information but also constructive criticism and challenges that are done with at least a modicum of personal respect (I am in no position to demand professional respect yet).

To the topic at hand:

I see where I changed from incidence to incident, I can assure everyone that it was not my attempt at pulling a fast one or changing the meaning of anything. I'm not sure the word actually means something different, just a grammar/should have double checked but didn't/ issue.

To me the law boils down to what " incidence to their employment" means (usually the phrase is "incidence of their employment") as I haven't found an actual legal definition of it as of yet (you would think it would be explained in PA code, maybe it is somewhere). I have seen the phrase used with different meanings (not in pa code though).

Mr. Marshall makes a very interesting point about criminal investigations and bail enforcement. I had thought and maybe I was wrong, that because I was enforcing a private contract (which happened to have a criminal aspect to it) that I was not conducting a criminal investigation per se according the the Private Detective Act of 1953.

Due to what I still believe is at best ambiguous wording in the statute combined with the LTCF for employment permit I cannot at this point concede defeat in regards to the question of actual law. Having said that, I will concede that due to what I believe is ambiguity contained in the act (and some of Mr. Marshalls points), that regardless of one's law enforcement background that it would be in the best interest of anyone working in PA with a deadly weapon who is engaged in bail enforcement to obtain their ACT 235 Certification. At the same time, because of the reasons I mentioned earlier I would not work armed in PA as either an independent agent (self employed) or employee who is not required to be armed without a LTCF regardless of ACT 235. And remember, just check self defense not employment on the resident or non-resident LTCF app.

Anyway, it was a good thread for the most part. Not only was the issue of Act 235 & LTCF explored but training in general was touched on. Too many people try to just do the absolute minimum training to qualify for a job (235 is a good example) and don't care about anything else. And don't even try to suggest to these same people that the training they received actually has a limited shelf life and (GASP!) it needs to be continually ingrained in their minds and muscles. You'll just send them into a fit if you mention ongoing training after gaining clients. I certainly don't include those with limited training who because of work, family or resources are limited in what they can do.

I did want to point out that when I said my first internet argument, I should have added "besides with the GF".

In regards to Constables, the way I understand it to work is: through whatever means, the bondsman asks/requests that the warrant be given to a specific State Constable and the State Constable is paid by the state with no compensation from the bondsman. If I'm not mistaken, unless the defendant has multiple warrants the Constable probably would make $200 at most if they arrest and transport the defendant they will make some money even if they are unsuccessful. "Off duty" (not working for the minor judiciary) Constables also perform fugitive recovery as private agents (in which case they need a "moonlighting" endorsement on their insurance and act 235 if they're armed ). I believe it started because of a case in Pittsburgh that's been discussed here before. My question would be, how much time could a Constable who may have a ton of other warrants, levys, transports etc put in for up to $200? Now of course there are individuals here *cough*me that would gladly PAY $200 to have the chance to get out into the field. What if they run a few states or even 1 state away? I do know this, there are a lot of people who need picked up. Somebody has decided that its better to have a very large list of wanted defendants than to use anyone other than Constables. I don't believe it's about saving money as I'm sure they're losing more in forfeitures than they could ever save. Unless they are immune to forfeitures as long as they only use Constables.

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

Mike
It is not a contest of who is right or who is wrong, it is about education. You will find that most laws or statutes are ambiguous purposely. They are written by Attorneys and must be interpreted by Attorneys eventually

You will also find that most LE have no or limited knowledge of our industry. What they do know is they don't like us. Educating LE on the side of the road with a skip in custody is never a good thing. it is much smarter to hold every credential that you can obtain regardless of the nuance of the laws as perceived by you or LE, if you are in contact with them, you already screwed up.

Just my humble opinion and it is worth what you paid for it, nothing!

Please understand that we have two reasons on here for teaching people: The first is to keep you out of jail and there have been numerous examples that new better and went out and proved it! The second is that we are interested in protecting the industry we make a living in. It only takes one major screw up to motivate a politician to go after our industry and we all lose.

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

well said Scott

_________________


Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius

I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

it may take longer for some to understand this . . . Until then . . . We Guard the Halls

_________________


Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius

I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN

Mr. MacLean stated "You will also find that most LE have no or limited knowledge of our industry." My most recent experience with this was from an Army SFC who had asked what I did for a civilian career. I said "Bail Recovery" and his reply was "I was asking about your legal profession not your illegal activities....seriously, what do you do?" I tend to spend way to much time attempting to "educate" others that I know I cannot convince but in this case I did not feel that it was my place or going to make any difference to someone that was, also, a LT in one of our largest metro counties, Cobb. I left him with "The state approves me to conduct business and I follow the letter of the law in doing it. If Georgia law makes my profession illegal.....well, SGT/LT, I would suggest that someone jump to the big hill to make some changes. T vs T has been around for a long time and that is the basis for the law governing my industry. What do you feel makes this profession so illegal anyway?" He had no specific answer but then said "I bet you will never work in my county or be allowed in my jail. We don't recognize you (We know that is illegal so long as I have been approved but I had a different answer rather than arguing)and we don't like being impersonated. If you want to be a cop go to mandate....the problem is, Bounty Hunters are Bounty Hunters because they want to be cops but can't pass background checks" (Which was a stupid comment because he knows my clearance; if I can get through that process......) . My reply "Ohhh. Well, I guess they didn't get that memo, SGT. I have been approved in Cobb for several years and I have turned no less than 150 people in over there. They have said that my Background is fine. I hope this doesn't cause a problem." He walked away and another Cobb Sheriff said "I know your training record. You are better trained.....more often trained than most of our patrol officers or MPs, plus you pay for it out of your pocket. Whats the big deal? I think its cool" This shows that the higher ups may not even know why they don't like us....they just know they don't. It also shows that someone who hasn't been "taught" to dislike us (or that has a mind of thier own) will only find fault where there is fault. How fair would it be to lump all LEO with the SO that got a 15 year old pregnant and then got her an abortion WITHOUT NOTIFYING HER PARENTS....or what about the officer that stole drugs from evidence so he could resell them....or the several that are wife beaters.....with those few examles, does this make all LE criminals and "just like them". Absolutely not. For the most part, LE are great people with a calling to serve others.....like us. The few that mess up and cause trouble put a bad taste in everyones mouth.

The bottom line is, it is no more fair or right to compare us to the yahoos that screw up than it is to compare all LEO to the few I have known to mess up BAD. Not knowing how we work, when we work, and what governs us is the first mistake in a long line of mistakes that tend to hurt us as an industry. Newbies are at fault. LE is at fault, civilians are at fault, Television is at fault....all we can do is stay liablity free, educate ourself (including training; OC, Taser, weapons, cuffing techniques, entry, business managment, court proceedures...anything dealing with our industry), educate those we come in contact with, and attempt to keep others (or suggest to them to keep) within the standards that we as professionals adhere to.

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Thomas SnoWolf
FRN# 1999
GAPB 20120726
NSIS ST0707
http://www.rocksolidrg.com
"The hero is not the man that acts without fear,
He is the man that acts inspite of fear"

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Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

_________________
Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

Thank you. I will certainly keep that in mind.

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912