9's, .40's and .45's ..Oh My

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Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

No worries.... It's said and done. Just some reflections....I think we were both saying the same thing, only using different verbage..maybe a sign of the times or legal issues.

"Shooting to kill" training focused on center mass target zones aka kill zones. Which is what you were saying, "center mass". The training verbage probably changed over the years due to lawsuits and criminal investigations. You were taught to say "I was shooting to stop or neutralize a threat", Well if you logically reason it out, what is a very probable by-product of "shooting center mass to neutralize a threat" ? The likely death of your target.

Also, my overall firearms training goes way back to my childhood. I remember getting a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun 1 yr as a kid, 8 ? Maybe 10 ? My father, uncles, grandfather, etc. all trained all of us kids in the family, even the girls how to shoot and hunt from early on. We were taught the old school values and responsibilities of firearms, hunting, target shooting, cleaning and maintenance, etc. along with the repeated verbage, "Never aim a weapon unless you're going to shoot; When you do shoot, you shoot to kill"...this was mainly in reference to hunting...deer, squirrels, elk, etc.

Also recieved similar training from the Boy Scouts by former Military and NRA certifed instructors, then on into the Military, and then later as an adult, private training by other persons and organizations. So you could say that from the late '60's to now, I've been around guns most of my life, and am seldom without 1.

Just to ilustrate how far times have changed, and I would never allow this to happen now with any of my kids if it were to come up, we used to play "war" with BB/pellet guns in our local woods. All of us male kids did....I had my
Daisy Red Ryder rifle and then my Crossman .177 pellet pistol. I felt like John Wayne...I can't tell you how many times we shot each other....seems insane now, but back then, it was ok. No one got hurt, we had a blast, we all were friends.

I can't even imagine the lawsuits and issues now if something like that were to happen in this day and time.

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Another factor to consider is public opinion and a change in law enforcement viewpoints. Look at the history of law enforcement...most cops were ex soldiers, so they brought all of that training with them...radios, helicopters, "SWAT" teams, even organizational flow charts all have connections to the Military. So they also brought with them the mindset of in order to protect the public from the bad guys, you simply killed them.

However, after the Vietnam War, a shift in public opinion occurred. The general public wasn't sitting still for what they saw as police brutality, abuses of power, etc. So over a long period of time, generally speaking, the current mindset of cops changed from "Kill them all and let God sort them out" to the preservation of human life....thus the tactics and strategies of waiting people out, less than lethal devices, chemical agents, etc. All of these things have been devised and created with 1 purpose in mind: Getting the accused into custody without having to kill him/her.

I believe this is probably the training you have undergone...to exercise every available option as well as giving the def/accused every opportunity to surrender without incident. For people like me, who have been trained under the old school, we have had to change our ways and thinking to come into compliance with current trends and policies, so we are on the same page as everyone else is.

Hopefully now, you can understand what I meant with my previous comments and understand that I do operate in accordance with the laws, policies, trends, and acceptable behaviours of our industry as well as that of the community.

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River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

well, here goes another...

How about the 10mm? I know Virginia SP had them set to be issued, did so and then moved back to the previous because of problems with production and/or service related issues... anyway... you know the .40 is to the 10mm, what the .380 is to the 9mm... in other words... the main difference in these two calibers is in the size of the case... the .40 is a short version of the 10mm and the .380 is a short version of the 9mm... I have a Delta Elite which is basically a Colt 1911 version in 10mm... I bought it at a gun show when they first came out... have not fired it to this day and probably won't... but it is nice... most of the dealers I know personally have told me that as nice as Colts are.... (this should start something)... there are much better versions of in line magazine .45's, single action auto's on the market... especially in resent years... anyway, just thought I would kick the 10 out there and see what you had to say about that.... I remember when it was introduced and LE immediately felt and said it was the next generation service weapon... remember that???? didn't last... at least here; although I think there are some LE that have it as their service weapon.

BTW... my grandson carries a Glock .45 as his issue weapon and a .40 XD subcompact Springfield as his backup. (He is a Virginia deputy)

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Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

I remember the hoopla around 10mm's....they didn't make it here either.

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River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

I am going to pop in on this one with a few comments:

1) I have always been taught (through military, security, and private training) if a situation is important enough to draw down on, its important enough to fire upon. If your going to fire, make sure the threat is eliminated. The typical firing order, being taught in todays military is "two to the chest one to the head".
2) Having said that, I must now say that in my years of military, security, Bail Recovery, Asset Recovery, Asset Protection, Executive Protection, Personal Security, (ect.) I have never had to draw on anyone. I find that my most useful tool has been my mind and verbage. I have never had to Tase anyone; I have never OC sprayed a fugitive; I have never found the need to hit a subject with an ASP....I carry all of these tools but I have never been in a situation where I felt that one of these tools were my best or only choice. In fact, I have only had to fight one person, while on the job, and that was a hyped up, meth head that decided it would be a great idea to punch me in the eye to get me out of his doorway. That resulted in a quick takedown and cuffing session. So honestly, I have never even had to use any "physical tools" to apprehend anyone except for the occasional foot chase.

I have had people ask why I don't Tase subjects that run from me. My answer is always "At 40 years old I can still run the 40 in 3.9......why use a Taser on someone I can catch within about 20 steps." There are very, very, VERY few people that can outrun me. There is not much chance that those people that can are criminals. Most likely they are training for the olympics or on a college track team or something alittle more useful.

I take great pride in the fact that I am 40 and can perform 80 situps in 2 minutes, 80 pushups in 2 minutes, run two miles in about 16:00:00, and can sprint a 40 in 3.9. I find pride in being able to run down a 18 - 19 year old. It makes me proud when I grab a 20 year old subject and shock runs through his face due to the suprise in strength and the fact that I ran up behind him, smiled and asked "Are you stopping so we can do this like men or are we going to have to resort to childish behavior, fighting and rolling around on the ground for awhile? Either way, your leaving with me, and in handcuffs but I will give you the choice of how we get to that point."

Bottom line, I am more than willing to use a tool to complete a job if I find the need. I have not found that need, as of yet. I find that my vocal skills and mental state are more useful. I also find that I have fewer "bucking subjects" than the average person states, when I do things "my way". I mean, I must admit, I am much more willing to talk and act like an adult if someone approaches me speaking. If they were to approach me armed with any weapon (lethal or less than) I might tend to take the stance "Before this is done, this guy is loosing an arm!!!"

That is just a humble opinion, from someone that knows little to nothing about anything except what I think, feel, and believe. Take it for what its worth....which, as the ole saying goes "This plus $10 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's"

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Thomas SnoWolf
FRN# 1999
GAPB 20120726
NSIS ST0707
http://www.rocksolidrg.com
"The hero is not the man that acts without fear,
He is the man that acts inspite of fear"

Sno...you are such a pussy.......... and BTW... I live in Oklahoma...

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I am 65 years old and take pride in the fact that I can out drink most 25 year college guys… I can also out shoot every single friend of mine and all retired LE buddies that are in the South Hill Nursing Home… I wear a very expensive pair of tennis shoes and I can walk extremely fast to the bathroom any time of the day and once I did this 11 times in one nite… I have been known to load three 40 lb bags of potting soil in the back of my macho Chevy diesel pickup single handedly… and I can launch and beach a 19.5’ Tahoe ski boat single handedly… I can run from my backdoor to the garage in less than 10 minutes and it is almost 50 yds... I once made love for 12 hours straight… and after I got out of the hospital I was ask to do it again, which I did less than a month later… I survived a major hurricane by boarding myself and 5 waitresses in the top floor of the “Elbo Room” (which was known as “Crazy Greggs” in 1965) at the corner of Los Olas and A1A… Ft. Lauderdale… and exited 3 days later unscathed and without a scratch, I once rode a Harley through the front door and out the back door of a bar in Chapel Hill, NC after drinking 5 large pitchers of 3.2 draft beer and did not go to jail… until after they caught me… a week later and then they turned me loose cause no one would ID me… I can also swim the entire length of my pool (36') underwater. (I do not smoke... cigarettes)

However, as tough as I am… I also have never drawn my weapon on anyone except three telephone operators in Florida several years ago and they only laughed and said … “my God, is that thing loaded…” ; the four of us ended up living on a boat in the inland waterway for 4 months... I had to leave the state after that due to total physical exhaustion, doctors orders...

...but if I have to make a dangerous pickup… I usually call someone like…………………………………………. Sno... u da man.

BTW... I can also do 3 pushups in 2 minutes... and I ride a stationary bike 5 miles 3 times a week while watching Fox news... which is in itself quite strenuous...

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Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

I once drank 19 komakazi's (however it's spelled) and still rode the Fat Boy home. (stupid and young).

I once outran the Georgia State Patrol in my '77 Firebird. I got away only to come home and find the Trooper (a friend of my dad's) waiting on me with my dad. I bought the car from the Trooper's brother.

I once could stand at attention and still see my toes. (I will do it again someday). Therefore, I sometimes rely on the speed of the tazer to equalize the speed of the perp.

You all have a good day. Catcha later and be safe.

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Jim Elkins, Lead Agent
Global Recovery Agency, llc
Locust Grove (Atlanta) Georgia
(678) 759-0530
Bail Enforcement / Recovery
Specialized Repossessions
"NSF" Bad Check Recovery
Extraditions

I know my posts are ridiculous most times but I was actually trying to make a point... although somewhat long winded... and that is...

you really don't need to be a macho, tough, straight shooting, John Wayne type to be in this business... although obviously it might come in handy at times... you just have to be in fairly good shape, be fairly intelligent and have a very level head on your shoulders... it helps if you have the gift of gab... which I think I do..... and most of you do too....

I see your pictures on here and most of us... at least the ones over 40 or 50... Sno, you are the exceptions, you azzhole... are in the slightly to a lot overweight category... and I would imagine would have a rather difficult time running the 100m in under 10 sec.... so you have to compensate for your limitations... as ... was it Dirty Harry said... and if you do... you can make adjustments in you style and overcome those limitations... so, that was what I was getting at.................

and one other thing....... as for the caliber, which was the original question posted... you know what... it might be important in some instances... but frankly...as has been said on here already... the most important thing is being able to handle what you carry and to hit what you aim at... if you can hit a pack of smokes at 10' with a .22... you are just as well off, if not better off, than the guy with the .50 Nitro that can't hit a bull in the azz at 5'...

there is an old story about an Eskimo mother who while protecting her child from a very large mean Brown bear that weighed in at over 900lbs.... she shot it one time with the only weapon she had... a single shot .22 rifle .... through the eye and killed it deader than 6 oclock... lucky, yes, but the point is made.

The "right caliber" argument will never end... it is interesting but a moot point in the overall scheme of things... IMHO...
It's like... what color car to you drive..............

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Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

Bill. Could you write down your training routine and send it to me? A few of those things could come in handy!

It took me close to 40 years to perfect my training but I lost the paper I wrote it on and I can't for the life of me, remember what it was.... sorry Icer??

Sort of like the old couple sitting on the front porch, each with a cigarette in hand... the woman smiles at the man and says... "was it good for you?" and the guy turns and looks at her and says... "was what good?"

_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"