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 Post Posted: Thu 08 Sep 2005 19:26 
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Hadley

Your experience is definately respected and appreciated by me :-) . My father is from the east coast (winding up in Hawaii after a tour of duty in Nam as UDT) and I've been visiting a bit in my younger days. Definately an "interesting" place to be a police officer.

The point I was trying to make with Steve is that there is unananimous agreement on the use of force principal in the situation and while we can all moday morning quarterback what happened, it did appear to be an unjustified use of force.

You are obviously up on your case law and realize the importance it plays, not only in our former professions, but in our current one as well.

I think the scary part is that florida rulling could bode ill for bondsmen and their agents in that state. Taken literally that ruling would prohibit bondsmen from picking up their skips at all or even using force in their own defense because they were not even supposed to picking up the fugutive in the first place....

Kind of like accident laws where if you are on the road with no insurance, plates, or violations of that nature, and you are in an accident... even if you are in no way at fault (ie; sitting at a stop light and someone rear ends you), you can still be held at fault because the claim is that you sould not even be on the road to begin with and that the accident would not have occured if you vehicle was not there. LOL.

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"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. That is your oath."
- Kingdom of Heaven


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 Post subject: law
 Post Posted: Thu 08 Sep 2005 20:25 
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Don i do understand your meaning and i do understand Steve my slant is an all nothing view--I do believe that bea as we know it has a limited life in todays society unless we force the issue--he is what i mean--in t v t thed fed in fact removed the authority from the state and put it on the feds shoulders - ie cross state lines to apprehend skips--i my opinion(which does not count for too much)that says that the state can not interfear with bea --either to uphold or eliminate bea authority-- our authority comes from the fed not the state--with that in mind we need to get a case in front of the us supreme court---it can go either way they can strike down t v t or uphold t v t or change its meaning so to me its a all or nothing situation--i believe there is enough material saying that bea is an integeral part of the criminal justice system to support our position and while we have a right wing court we should strike or one of these days we become extinct

by the way i enjoy all the legalese and case law discussions---one day look up a us supreme court ruling of genovese vs state of new york i think it was in 1965--in that case i believe you will find that the us supreme court ruled that police have no mandate to protect the indiviual citizen just society as a whole.speak about right of deadly force and what that can cause


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 Post Posted: Thu 08 Sep 2005 21:57 
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Exactly what I have been arguing about T v T.

It took the power out of the states hands. The only power the States have is in the regulation of BECOMING a BEA or Surety.

The problem is that we don't, as individuals, have the funds it would take to force a case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

LOL, I used to love pissing off the local attorneys. A lot of them think only they know about the law and would try to pull some hinky stuff over on the officers who were not up on things.

It's a trait I picked up from my family (father retired sgt, uncle retired cpt)... whenever I visited they would critique my knowledge and report writing skills... Man they never let up, they were worse than my instructors in the academy. They were very big on knowing the law and the ever changing landscape. The funny thing though is I have always found the law both fascinating and frustrating in it's interpretation and application. A lot of people don't even realize that the Miranda Warning is not a constitutional right and people these days (even some officers) will refer to the reading of the Miranda Warning as a reading of their Constitutional Rights LOL.

As I recall that ruling (the no mandate to protect in general) was one of several used in defense of No Pursuit policies for the past several years? I recall there was a big shift back in the nineties to "no pursuit" policies and there was discussion on if police were required to pursue or not... I believe there was almost as much pro pursuit as there was anti pursuit groups at the time (though I think the anti pursuit groups were much more vocal LOL).

I really do need to start reviewing the current interpretations in more than just the BEA field... used to follow it a lot for drug interdiction purposes (right to search vehicles, what constituted pc for a search, right to search passenger, etc.)

Legalese aside though, in the end it comes down to public support and financial capability. Hell, look at OJ. That was a travesty, I can not believe he was acquitted.

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-The Solution-
Indiana Agency #: PI20700211
Indiana Notary Public - Exp: 12/20/13

"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. That is your oath."
- Kingdom of Heaven


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 Post Posted: Fri 09 Sep 2005 08:35 
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I see more guys on here and other places complaining more about Duane Chapman then i do some cowboy that goes out and shoots a guy. I mean if we are trying to protect our business which one of the above things will have your legislature changing laws against BEAs , a rouge dude shooting a guy or a media hound who is getting awards from his local government. Stop the Dog bashing..... your just jealous!


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 Post subject: puppy
 Post Posted: Fri 09 Sep 2005 09:24 
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Here comes some fact Big D dog ex felon -dogs antics and the antics of his mascot portray us as a-holes and clowns-the pro bea is far from that-most pro bea have military or pd or some other proffessional backround-as far as jealousey goes here the scoop in my past career as nypd street cop and detective plus years as bea i can prove over 2000 arrests(not of brain dead a-holes but some dangerous people)--my associate LAW who has been a pro bea since 1984 has documented over 1270 arrests all over the world--we do not assault our cuffed skips we do not retreat and leave our people to be beat by skips friends we do not go around name calling-we can go into police stations all over the world we do not lie about arrests in mexico--LAW has all the proof that du-du lied about everything he did in mexico(LAW traveled to mexico at his own expense and has documentation showing du-du as a liar)we do not hide from interviews and have challenged du-du many times to public debate du-du has declined-- all the facts and just the facts


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 Post Posted: Fri 09 Sep 2005 10:31 
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Is that guy kidding or what? Has he not seen the way "Dog" operates? It is bringing our industry down. People think we are a joke. Were not taken seriously anymore because of him. Everytime someone ask me about my profession, the first thing out of their mouth is, oh like Dog? I dont and will never want to be compared to him. I am in noway the same as he, main reason being, Im not a convicted felon!!! And jealous I am not and Im sure I speak for alot of others on here. You obviously dont work in this industry and probaly shouldnt be on here in the first place.

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 Post Posted: Sat 10 Sep 2005 11:55 
 
It is incorrect to say that only the executing bail agent may arrest a defendant either post estreature or pre estreature in Florida. Any agent appointed by the Surety and with permission of the executing agent may arrest a defendant. The problem with the Palatka shooting appears to be one of judgement of the bondsman as it relates to our use of force statutes in this state. I know several other bondsmen who have had occasion to fire weapons in self defense during the apprehension of a fugitive and none were ever charged with anything after the requesite invest.


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 Post Posted: Sat 10 Sep 2005 14:35 
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I will concede that my interpretation may have been a little narrow, and that it only says that a surety may make the arrest. Fortunately for us in other states, they allow BEA licensed or certified in other states to come in and get our skips. The couple of times we have been to FL they were very cooperative.


The 2004 Florida Statutes

Title XXXVII
INSURANCE Chapter 648
BAIL BOND AGENTS View Entire Chapter

648.30 Licensure and appointment required.--

(1) A person may not act in the capacity of a bail bond agent or temporary bail bond agent or perform any of the functions, duties, or powers prescribed for bail bond agents or temporary bail bond agents under this chapter unless that person is qualified, licensed, and appointed as provided in this chapter.

(2) A person may not represent himself or herself to be a bail enforcement agent, bounty hunter, or other similar title in this state.

(3) A person, other than a certified law enforcement officer, may not apprehend, detain, or arrest a principal on a bond, wherever issued, unless that person is qualified, licensed, and appointed as provided in this chapter or licensed as a bail bond agent or bail bond enforcement agent, or holds an equivalent license by the state where the bond was written.

(4) Any person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

History.--s. 4, ch. 29621, 1955; s. 177, ch. 70-339; s. 3, ch. 76-168; s. 1, ch. 77-457; ss. 2, 3, ch. 81-318; ss. 6, 71, 72, ch. 82-175; ss. 50, 51, ch. 84-103; s. 5, ch. 87-321; ss. 8, 46, 47, ch. 90-131; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 7, ch. 96-372; s. 6, ch. 2002-260.

Note.--Former s. 903.40.



Abstract: 903.20 Surrender of defendant. --The defendant may surrender himself or herself or a surety may surrender the defendant any time before a breach of the bond. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp.


903.22 Arrest of principal by surety before forfeiture.--A surety may arrest the defendant before a forfeiture of the bond for the purpose of surrendering the defendant or the surety may authorize a peace officer to make the arrest by endorsing the authorization on a certified copy of the bond.

History.--s. 65, ch. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 8663(65); s. 31, ch. 70-339; s. 1483, ch. 97-102.


903.29 Arrest of principal by surety after forfeiture.--Within 2 years from the date of forfeiture of a bond, the surety may arrest the principal for the purpose of surrendering the principal to the official in whose custody she or he was at the time bail was taken or in whose custody the principal would have been placed had she or he been committed.

History.--s. 72, ch. 19554, 1939; CGL 1940 Supp. 8663(72); s. 1, ch. 59-192; s. 5, ch. 61-406; s. 5, ch. 65-492; s. 35, ch. 70-339; s. 47, ch. 84-103; s. 11, ch. 86-151; s. 1486, ch. 97-102.

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Kathy Blackshear
Blackshear Investigations
Blackshear Bail Bonds
Sales Associate, Prepaid Legal Services, Inc.
Walsenburg, CO


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat 10 Sep 2005 19:48 
 
If you are licensed to make arrests in the state from whence the bond was written, our statutes allow you make an arrest. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. For the most part FL LEO's are more than happy to assist with or allow bail agents to make arrests. By and large they feel that we are all trying to accomplish the same thing.


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 Post Posted: Sat 10 Sep 2005 23:03 
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I have been to Florida on quite a few occasions and found Florida Law Enforcement has always been more than helpful. They have always bent over backwards to assist in quite a few different jurisdictions that I have been in.


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