Firing Range, Cuffing teqniques, use of OC spray vs physical

First, I'm in bad need of some physical conditioning. Having said that, we as Bail Agents, FRA's BEA's etc talk a lot about Target practice, oc spray, cuffing, asp's, taser's etc but how often do we really use those tools. ( with the exception of cuffs) We all should be proficient in the tools of our profession but we should be equally prepared physically. My experience is that I seldom have to fight but there are times that I do. (very few times) I've never had to shoot a skip however. At the risk of maybe upsetting some people I must say that if we truly want to be looked upon as professionals we all must strive to get into better shape physically and that includes me.

While I consider myself competent in the tools I use, no one is going to judge me on that unless of course I use them incorrectly. I am judged on my appearance almost every minute of every day... I'm never gonna be a body builder type but I can tone up and at least look a little better.

I knew this cop that worked in the Magistrates office. He was not only overweight big time which maybe he couldn't help, I don't know, but his pants hung down around his shorts which was repulsive to say the least. Everytime someone mentions the department that he works for I think of this guy. It seems the older I get the harder it is to get in shape and I'm sure that trend will continue but we must thrive to look professional. You know, a picture is worth .... anyway just some food for thought.

If this subject has been beaten to death prior to this please accept my apologies.

_________________
Bill Williams
Bail Agent
Eagle Bonding Services
Asheville NC 28804
828-777-8667
Lic # NC10013561
Lic # TN 2033018

Never be haughty to the humble
or humble to the haughty - Jefferson Davis

I concur 1000%!

Im not quite as concerned with physical agility for those I work with, as I am their dress and demeanor. However, I wont employ someone who is just so out of shape that they can't do their work. Just yesterday I did some work for a general agent who had some skips about 3 hours from me. I arrived in town and met with him at the pre-arranged location. Up to this point things have went well, and we started going over the case file.

An hour and a half later (essentially an hour and a half late) the other two agents came in. One was male, wearing a dirty T shirt (paint stains I think) un tied tennis shoes, and his hair was below his shoulders ratted and everywhere. Picture David Lee Roth on a bad day dressed in dirty clothes. That's your partner for a apprehension..

The female, was dressed well but I soon discovered (just before we made entry) that she had never used or trained on oc spray, and she holds her cuffs up, and says.. 'What are these at what do I do with them? Where do I put them?'

Myself and the other agent were dressed in slacks, I had a button down black shirt on. When we had the defendants in the vehicles, I stripped off my raid vest and my body armor, and looked as though I was ready for court. Same for the general I went to help. We arrived at the jail looking professional, neat and COMPETENT.

Dress like an idiot, look like an idiot, and act like an idiot.. People will think you're an idiot and you're right that's all they will talk about.
Dress professional, look professional, and act professional.. People will think you're a professional even if you're an idiot!

_________________
Jeff D.
Gauntlet Professional Services
Fugitive Recovery, Bail Bonds, Process Servers, Investigations, Security, Training,
State Approved Courses for POST and DIFP
Located in Central/Southwest Missouri/St. Louis/Kansas City
417.309.0582

Bill, I agree and I need to get into shape myself. Depending on what happens next month maybe we can start working out some together. My son can make us a good work out schedule, since that is what he does everyday. Let me know what you think

_________________
Blackjack Bail Bonds
828-277-7110(Bonds only)
828-275-7353 cell

61 reads and only 2 comments... tells me that there are a lot of fat azz, overweight, out of shape guys and gals on this site.

Three days ago, myself and my grandson went to the garage and cleaned out the center where my boat used to reside (sold it to my son).

I hung up my 80lb. heavy bag that I used to work out on when I was in to Karate (back when I thought I was tough ) got out the dusty old stationary bicycle, also got out my old 'Total Gym' and a couple of weights I had... put down a nice old rug that had been rolled up, placed all that stuff on it and sat down in front of a big fan that I had purchased at Walmart for 19.95... went over to the refrigerator (that I keep a few cool ones in....) and opened a Bud Light w/lime... and tried to cool off.... cause putting all that stuff together and moving all the other stuff had worn me out.... so much for my exercise for that day... oh, I also put a couple of folding chairs in there so I can talk about what kind of exercises we need to do to get rid of these 50lb. love handles... in the meantime I figure I am a pretty good shot and although I can't do a 'jumping front kick' anymore... I still have fast hands and so if I get in a physical confrontation... I will either shoot them or pop them with a spinning back fist... well, maybe not spinning... just straight ahead...

Anyway, I have started doing some riding on the bicycle... and a few moves on the bag and even did a few exercises on the total gym... I figure if I can just get in the "HABIT" of doing this on a daily basis for even 15 minutes a day... it should help... we shall see.

_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

Just a response to the above.

I have jokingly posted many times about dressing as if I was on my way to Disneyland. I even posted a few pictures of me on one of my arrests where I discuss silly things like 'tactical sandals'... 'depends' and other assorted silly stuff. I might mention that those particular pictures were taken one summer when I was fishing and got a call that one of my skips was at a NC jail and I had to make a very fast appearance before they released him... so I showed up dressed like that... I might mention here that I do not ever dress with 'swat' apparel... I always dress casually, even when appearing in court. I do try to act and look professional and often in the summer wear shorts when doing a bond... but always wear a collared shirt and if in court of course I wear regular slacks and a bit dressier but the only time I wear a tie is at a funeral or wedding or church...

Folks that dress like they are a member of a 'swat team' sort of make me nervous... I keep thinking they are gonna get 'frisky'. That may be an over reaction on my part.

I should state here that I have dealt with recovery folks that did in fact dress like LE and most of the time they worked out just fine... however... I was still nervous about the actions involved and even though they got the job done... when they were in close proximity to
regular LE officers.. I could denote a bit of apprehension on the part of the cops... that was not my imagination.

It may be that a bullet proof vest, a tactical belt filled with cuffs, guns, spray, clubs and other stuff is warranted and you may think it is needed along with a tactical vest with radios, name tags, "AGENT", "FUGITIVE RECOVERY" or other lettering on the front or back and if it works for you that is fine.... but my persona has always been very casual and it has worked fine for many years. I have also found that dressing as a tact team member often times has a negative effect on many of the LE officers I deal with.

I do carry cuffs and a firearm when on some pickups... but not all the time... but if you see me during a recovery, you would not identify me as such... just an old fat guy on the way to Pizza Hut.



I have been fooling folks for years...

Now, back to the push-ups and the exercises...

This is my opinion only.

_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

I've put up with the stigma of wearing a raid vest for quite some time. Even yesterday one of the agents gave me a nice lecture as I put my gear on.

I wear a ballistic vest because I was shot in the back putting handcuffs on a guy. It was a BB gun, and I'm just thankful the kid didn't get his hands on a firearm. It was right between my shoulder blades. Body armor on every job from then on.
I wear safety glasses because a guys wife sprayed hair spray in my eyes. Then proceeded to hit me with something several times before anyone came to my aid. Turned out to be an empty laundry basket, but I couldn't see much for a long time.
I wear boots because I want my feet protected. Go ahead and stomp my toes while I put your restraints on.
I wear barrier and cover gloves because I don't want any diseases.
I wear a raid vest because I will show up at your door looking like a preacher, and come back in 60 seconds ready to apprehend someone.
I wear an "AGENT" patch on my raid vest so the cops won't think I am a burglar and shoot me if they are called. Remember the Florida agents that got shot a few months back?
I carry 2 sets of cuffs because I may think I have someone under control and have to drop the set in my hand and get control of them again. I'll need that second set then. Or like yesterday when one of the agents who 'dresses low key' only had one set of cuffs and they needed two sets to get this guy under control. His 'partner' had no handcuffs at all.
I have a fire extinguisher in every vehicle because people will poor flammable liquids on you and light you on fire.
I record every recovery on a camera because I don't want any he said/she said.
I carry a taser because I have no desire to fight, and no desire to die. I carry OC for similar reasons.
I carry a radio because I can't always tell whats going on outside/inside/front/back. No one wanted radios yesterday and one of the agents got knocked around pretty good because they were scrambling to find another set of cuffs.
I carry a flashlight to blind 'trouble makers' in the house who interfere. (wives with hair spray, angry cousins, etc...)

I have tried low key. One set of cuffs, and maybe some oc and it doesn't work for me. There are too many meth houses, and people who would rather rip your head off and watch you squirm. I don't write much bail. I have primarily made a go at recovery. I know next to nothing about the people I recover until I go get them. The bond for the fella yesterday was for driving while suspended. I had no idea he had been in jail multiple times for assault, and always resisted arrest. I also had no idea he was an amateur cage fighter. I got a call the night before that they needed help and I went. But I went prepared.

_________________
Jeff D.
Gauntlet Professional Services
Fugitive Recovery, Bail Bonds, Process Servers, Investigations, Security, Training,
State Approved Courses for POST and DIFP
Located in Central/Southwest Missouri/St. Louis/Kansas City
417.309.0582

Jeff, I don't even know how to respond to your post.

All I can come up with is this.... if you have experienced even half of the things that provide reason for you to carry that particular piece of equipment and I certainly have no reason to doubt anything you say... I can only say that I am glad I live in southern Virginia because I have not experienced a single thing that even approaches what you are talking about.

I am only a bondsman but have done recoveries for myself for just under 12 years and have experienced recoveries that other bondsmen and BEA folks have done all over this part of the country and as I said, never experienced or seen anything remotely similar to your activities.

If your AO represents the environment as you describe it... you will never have to worry about this old man coming out there for any reason. I will stay in the bushes in southside Virginia... safe and warm and if I ever feel that I need any of the stuff you carry.......... I will just call Yak, or Dave or even you to come to my aid.

I will, however, continue to make my recoveries in as low a profile as always.

Definition: Low Profile: casual dress, concealed weapon if at all (obviously depends on the situation), usually 1 set of cuffs and sometimes ankle cuffs, no door kicking, no loud screaming or yelling, very calm demeanor... talk 'em in has worked for me 99% of the time, sometimes a clip on name tag w/DCJS picture ID, sometimes a cap with my company name... if I have any indication of a physical confrontation I will call in some assistance but as mentioned, in 99% of the time, I have done it myself with no problems... s**t can certainly happen and I try to be prepared but my demeanor and dress is always low profile and very casual.

I can only say good luck and for Gods sake man.......... keep your head down and your guns loaded.

_________________
Bill Marx, Sr.
"FREE STATE BAIL BONDS"
"FREE STATE INVESTIGATIONS"
DCJS: 99-176979
Cell: 434-294-0222

"Endeavor to Persevere" "Lone Watie"

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that , comes from bad judgment" "Will Rogers"

Bill,

I don't mean to say every recovery is a knock down drag out. My first recoveries were low key, minimal equipment. What I mean to say is I have changed my approach a little at a time based on experiences. I too looked at the swat gear with a leary eye before but have since changed my perception of it, because it really can serve a purpose.

For example, I used to wear 'dress' type shoes. They looked great with slacks, but the wife and I picked up a young lady in Springfield and shes was a bit rough with my wife, so I stepped in only to get restraints on her. That girl stomped my feet so many times I just about could'nt get anything done. So from then on I wore steel toe boots. They are nice boots, they also go great with slacks, but the toe stomping will not be a problem again.

I always wore 2 pairs of cuffs, because thats the method we teach in our restraints class. And it's MOSTLY in case we have to empty our hands in a hurry and re-secure a person but it also comes in handy on a big person where one set doesn't fit.

The body armor was a must after a while. The BB gun was the last straw. We do live in the meth capital of the US and they can be very hazardous. Those people don't play nice.

I ultimately went with a raid vest because it took too much time to get ready. A typical recovery would go like this;
Bond agent calls at noon and says I need help at XXX address. At 5 I would leave my day job, drive near the location, and spend 5 minutes getting ready. Then I would arrive at the location and assist the agent. So the vest carries EVERYTHING I need. I leave at 5, open my trunk put on my vest and zip it. Good to go. I work in an office environment. So there is no staging area for me, I have to get ready in the car on the way. OR if I knocked on the door to confirm our guy was there, I have to drive away, get everything/everyone ready and go back. I lost a guy once doing that so the vest is the quickest way to be ready for me.

Because I have been through law enforcement training and I now also instruct officers, I do get calls for help when the bail agents thinks it will be bad. It may also be because I am a large guy. I don't know. Either case, I have changed my approach over time and this is the approach that works best for me. I would say 95% of the time I have dropped someone at the jail and said, 'I could have went with just a pair of cuffs'. But every time I drive some place I could have not worn my seat belt. I guess my point is, it's the safest way for me to do it because I don't really know what is going to happen until it's all over.

One the other hand. All the gear gets heavy. You have a disadvantage if you have to run a long way. I wear a weight vest when I run so that I can keep my legs in shape to run while I wear all that. It's also bulky. You better practice moving down a hallway with all that garb on. You aren't as slim when you wear it. Getting in and out of a vehicle needs some practice too.

I still say most of the time it's NOT the defendant that causes trouble. It's someone else in the building/parking lot/ yard. And It's usually screaming and calling names.

_________________
Jeff D.
Gauntlet Professional Services
Fugitive Recovery, Bail Bonds, Process Servers, Investigations, Security, Training,
State Approved Courses for POST and DIFP
Located in Central/Southwest Missouri/St. Louis/Kansas City
417.309.0582

How you dress is important. I too, like many old dudes am in need of shedding some weight and since my personal focus is NOT on the recovery end; when I meet clients I try to look professional.

If I am attending arraignment court; I will wear dress pants, tie and a sweater or vest ( so no one can accuse me of trying to look like a lawyer). The tie, dress shirt and dress pants in court not only shows respect for the place - but speaks "professionalism".

If I am meeting a client / cosigner during the day at the jail, dress pants and a shirt without a tie. Business casual is very common in the business world. I am not in a court room, but I may be in the Jail lobby or warrant office - some type of business apparel is necessary.

However If I am called in late at night or on a weekend, I will wear jeans and a polo shirt. It is late at night or the weekend - if you look o over dressed it can intimidate or irritate people.

During the day my Photo ID Card is on a business like belt clip, at night I wear it on a lanyard. (I wear the lanyard because it has a zipper compartment where I put the money and tuck it under my shirt so that I am not walking back to my car with money in my pocket)

Most of the time I meet with clients at the jail by my self; however in one particular county I take someone with me at night because I am usually carrying money and who else would be leaving a jail carrying a bag late at night but a bondsman who just got paid.

_________________
Ron Hartley
(Retired)

_________________________________________________________
To avoid confusion and misunderstanding:
I am fairly new in the bail bonds part of the legal system. I've been in the legal profession 25 years - Paralegal and Legal investigator.

I am not a BEA - just a Bondsman trying to improve and become a better bondsman.
_________________________________________________________

Was watching the news last night and a Sheriff in NC was being interviewed. He stated that he had lost over 45 lbs. Among the reasons he gave for doing this was that he was concerned about the image the public had of his department because of his weight.

He stated that his job was mostly administrative and didn't work the streets as he did prior to becoming Sheriff, he felt for the sake of of law enforcements image as a whole he should shed the excess pounds. pretty decent interview.

On the other hand, I read that two officers had been caught having sex in their patrol car. I'm wondering which of these stories will stay in the news the longest. Nah, not wondering.

_________________
Bill Williams
Bail Agent
Eagle Bonding Services
Asheville NC 28804
828-777-8667
Lic # NC10013561
Lic # TN 2033018

Never be haughty to the humble
or humble to the haughty - Jefferson Davis