4am, they won't open the door...

One other issue, the fugitive has warrants locally and the bondsman that hired you is in another state and you want to get paid for your work

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

Awe...man.... and I thought it was all over

Maybe I'm not that intelligent???

I have been on both sides... sort of speak. I have never assisted a BEA while working at my PD, but have been to calls with Repo guys and the like. So my view on "me being there" with the repo/bail guys and changing things is still confusing to me. If I am doing a standby and someone "sees me" or if I am out of the patrol car and on the porch with them (which most aren't) and the skip starts talking to me thinking I am in charge, I would state I am here doing a standby and you need to talk to these gentlemen over here.

3) Subject sees Leo. Subject begins dealing with Leo, deferring to thier assumed command authority, thereby placing themselves under the leo's authority, regardless of what the leo's may be telling them.

If I am there doing a standby, the statement "under my authority" ... how does it actually come into play? I am not detaining them, I have not been dispatched to "investigate them". I am just doing a civil standby, just as if someone had to pick up clothes from their house after a divorce. I am just there to "prevent crime" and keep safety. The house owner wouldn't be considered to be "under my authority" at that time. Other than the fact that if they commited a crime in my presence I would arrest them for it. I could take absolutely no part in the civil process. There would be a very distinct line between the two.

5) To have a subject surrenderring to you in the direct presence of a leo, identifies you as a government actor, giving the fugitive the idea that you are somehow connected to a law enf agency. Again this is misleading and illegal.

Once again, this paragraph was/is confusing to me also. If I am working PD and I assist a BEA, the skip sees me, and assumes we are connected?
Once again, I would state that I am here doing a standby and am not involved with the other guys arrest. But even if the skip was so dumb (often ) how would it be "illegal"? Illegal... meaning it would appear in our statutes defined as a crime? What law would be broken? If the BEA stated who he was and I stated why I am here, then the skips ignorance could not be introduced to bend any current statute that I am aware of. I can't see a judge/prosecutor using a "identifying as an LEO" or similar charge against the BEA in any case like this.

My basic thing is no matter what side I'm on BEA/PD, when I run it through my head I can't find where any of this pertains. If no laws are broken, no crime is commited. Other than civil suits of course, getting wrong guy... etc. Thats why if I am working PD I would only do a standby.

Sounds like we would be getting too much into laws/statutes... stuff much better addressed by attorneys than us. BTW if there are any attorneys from Mich.. PLEASE jump in and comment!!! I am not trying to argue... I just feel I'm right and would love to be proved wrong. As that would mean I have learned something valuable

For the recored... on 98% of our apprehensions, we advise central of our location and intentions, but DO NOT ask for PD assistance. In some towns/cities they just show up anyway, but in my neck of the woods we are usually alone. Central is advised in case the neighbor sees us creeping around the house.

Mindtracker: Sorry to be so thick-headed it's just the way I am.

PS. I have been thinking about law school lately. I think this is the reason why

Terry

BTW this is all we have on our books pertaining to actual "bail arrest"

7. Bail Agent’s Arrest Authority.

MICHIGAN COMPILED LAWS ANNOTATED CHAPTERS 760 TO 776. CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE CHAPTER 765. CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE--BAIL CHAPTER V. BAIL 765.26.

Set forth provisions for arrest and release of an accused by a surety.

In all criminal cases where any person or persons have entered into any recognizance for the personal appearance of another and such bail and surety shall afterwards desire to be relieved from his responsibility, he may with or without assistance, arrest the accused and deliver him at the jail or to the sheriff of said county.

In making such arrest he shall be entitled to the assistance of the sheriff, chief of police of any city or any peace officer. The sheriff or keeper of any jail in said county is authorized to receive such principal and detain him in jail until he is discharged in due course of law.

Upon delivery of his principal at the jail by the surety or any officer, such surety shall be released from the conditions of his recognizance.

Ok, I've tried my best and obviously failed here. So do it your own way and best of luck.

You've been told by several on here that having Leo's present during an apprehension is classified as "operating under the colour of law". Period.

Now, you have the personal choice of accepting what has been taught you or not. Strictly your choice. You may be successful a number of times with leo assistance, but it will only take 1 knowledgeable attorney or fugitive to question this practice and you may find yourself in a lawsuit or behind bars.

So proceed at your own risk......

_________________
River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

I just returned (3am this morning) from a midnight run into a neighboring state. We spent all weekend looking for 3 seperate high dollar cases. Upon doing our initial leo check in at the local PD, 1 of the very first statements made to us by the shift Sgt. was that his dpt could not assist us because of "Colour of Law". Imagine that, a veteran cop knew the law regarding leo assistance.....hmmmm seems like I've been trying to get this across throughout this whole thread to no avail.

I replied that we were not asking for assistance, but simpling doing a leo advisory of our intended activity, location, persons in question, vehicle, etc. He thanked us for doing that and gave us the # to thier dispatch and requested as we moved from 1 location to the next that we keep dispatch advised.

Predictably, 1 of the addresses we went to, the occupant called the PD on us. Couldn't blame her for doing that, the responding unit checked us out, our credentials, bail pieces, verified with dispatch that we had checked in, etc. Told us we were ok and if we needed anything to just call.

Very professional, polite, and as helpful as thier dpt. would allow them to be.

_________________
River City Associates
Decatur, Al. 35601

Here in Arkansas we have to notify the local authorities of our presence and as to why . . . they can stand by and keep the peace and not be a part of the arrest - they will arrest IF there is a warrant - if there is no warrant and the bondsperson simply wishes to recover their party then they will not participate - thereby the bondsperson is in charge and there is no "state actor", IF the LEO takes charge - then the bondsman becomes a State Actor.

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Do not consider anything for your interest which makes you break your word, quit your modesty, or inclines you to any practice which will not bear the light, or look the world in the face .... Marcus Antonius

I AM Some Folks "KARMA" and A MODERATOR @ FRN

Mindtracker,

Great job. I learned along time ago, that some get it and some do not. Nothing against anyone and no disrespect intended. I choose not to beat my head against the wall. I think it was a great opportunity for young people as well as the other card carrying termites who read and don't post to understand our thought processes on scene. Some are smart enough to consume and hopefully use the information, some not. But the argument was beneficial for all as I am sure that there are others that shared Saginaw's position but lacked his courage to respond. It takes balls to put yourself out there like that, and I respect that.

Some people on here will take a poor position on purpose to get the argument out there, and don't really hold to the antithesis point of view.
I respect that as well.

Scott

_________________
R.E. "Scott" MacLean III

"Leaders are like Eagles, you never see them in a flock, but one at a time"

Chesapeake Group Investigations, Inc.
Chesapeake Bail Bonds
877-574-0500
301-392-1100 (fax)
301-392-1900 (Office)

The rules are different when acting under "color of law", there was a Constable here in PA that got sued in Federal Court a few years ago for alledgedly violating a persons right to due process, he was assisting with a car repo and the debtors lawyer claimed that there was a mistake, long story short the federal court ruled that the Constable being a State Actor should not have deprived the debtor of his vehicle without a court order (due process), the repo guy was in the clear since he was acting under a private contract and was not a State actor, I'm not sure how it turned out, I think the Constable may have used qualified immunity as a defense since he was acting in good faith.

_________________
Chuck

I kind of like the back and forth debating.... don't get me wrong Mindtracker and Scott, I appreciate your views and I "learn" a great deal from you guys! Believe me!

Like I said, we don't usually have LE with us during an App. "IF" they show up, depending on their dept., it will be for a "stand by" only. So I actually AGREE with both of you regarding we are better off not having LE present unless needed! I FIRMLY BELIEVE THIS!!!! So I hope I havent mislead anyone. I was just saying that in Michigan, under "Mich Statutes", I don't see "LEGALLY" where having an officer present "DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES" how it would impede the case.
I have ran all kind of scenarios over and over in my head, both as me working for the bondsman and working for PD. Also, keep in mind I may be thinking of "different situations" than you guys are! And remember state law varies, obviously.

1. While working for PD I am asked to do a "standby" as a local bondsman is attempting to pickup a skip at 123 Any street.
I arrive and park my patrol car in front of his house. The bondsman has a valid paper warrant and the skip is in LEIN ( similar to NCIC but statewide only ). As I wait in the car, the bondsman enters the home... I hear yelling, it gets louder and louder. I feel I must investigate and advise dispatch that I'm entering the house. I walk in the door and find that the skips girlfriend doesn't want him to go and is threating to call the police. As she shes me she starts telling me some story that her man "didn't do anything wrong" yadayadayada.....
I would advise her that the bondsman has a valid warrant and has the right to take the skip into custody or I could take him ( due to the warrant issued and in LEIN ).
She calms down and lets the skip go.

Now .... what has transpired? I am actually in the house with both parties right? What can the skip or his family do "legally" or "civilly" in a court of law? If the bondsman is operating under the "colour of the law" now because I am present... what does that mean?

Like I said before... maybe this is too deep for discussion without an attorney on this board???? Also since state law varies sooooo much are we talking federal law? If not, then what you do in your state may be "DRASTICALLY" different than in Michigan. Don't you agree? I guess I'm just trying to get to the "root" of it. Not just "its a bad idea", now under "colour of law", its bad, etc... WHAT MICHIGAN LAW WAS VIOLATED AND WHY? How can I or my PD be involved criminally or in a civil way? And how would this affect the bondsman who made an apparently "valid arrest".

I'm not stubborn or stupid... I just want to understand from a legal standpoint not an opinionated one

One thing I see, and you may think Im splitting hairs, I am never armed with a paper warrant. Im armed with my bond contract and a certified copy of the bond. I may have a copy of the warrant with me as thats all some LEOs understand, but Im not serving the warrant. Im revoking my bond and the jailer or deputy on duty when I surrender him is serving the warrant when he reads it.

BEA 101, the word warrant does not exist in my vocabulary.