Question For Pennsylvania Agents

While working as a Bondsman or BEA are you required to be PA ACT 235 certified if you carry a firearm or do you only need the standard LTC.

_________________
Domestic Security Investigations
P.O. Box 4462
Rockville, MD 20849
Tel: 1-800-387-0787
Anti-Moral Majority Club President
"Fear not the unknown, Fear the person who controls the unknown" Gene 7:14

If you are required by your employer to carry a firearm or other deadly weapon then you need to be certified. On the other hand, if you choose to carry a deadly weapon such as a firearm while you work then no, the LTCF is sufficient. Now if you have a corp. and are technically an employee of the corp. and it has a policy of being armed while working that may be different.

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

_________________
Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

With all due respect to Mr Marshall, I would recommend that DSI doesn't get it. It would be a complete waste of time (up to 40 hrs) and money. It could take up to 3 mo to get certified. I'm sure that DSI's knowledge and experience eclipses anything a "235 school" can offer so there isn't even the benefit of learning something. And besides, the law is the law and its very, very unlikely that DSI will be standing somewhere arguing about act 235 when most LEO don't have a clue about it to begin with (according to the PA State Trooper that taught my class).

Having said that, for someone who doesn't have a LEO background there is value in it.

The bottom line is there is no employer requiring you to be armed, you're doing your job and wishing to be able to defend yourself if the need arises. It doesn't matter whether you're doing bail enforcement, repossessions or working at a 7/11.

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

_________________
Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

Mr. Marshall, I apologize if my original post seemed disrespectful as I did have respect for you as a professional which is why I said "with all due respect" I was disagreeing with you. Maybe it came came across as "calling you out" or something I don't know. Judging by your response it appears you took it that way (If you took it as someone simply disagreeing with you then I don't know what to say). Maybe what I should've done was open a dialogue with you on this matter via PM before posting my disagreement.

And you have how much experience doing this???

According to you = NONE. And I certainly believe that.

Yes. I am not lying about having no experience. Anyone is free to verify my non-experience. Does the fact that I don't have experience in FR mean that I can't state an opinion on matters that are related to but not exclusive to the industry?

First off Mr. Lacy may apply for a "non-resident" carry permit if he
so chooses.

Yes he may if he doesn't have one already. I'm not sure why you stated it as though I said he couldn't. He may already have one

Secondly, Mr. Lacy resides and has his business in
Maryland, and PA. does not grant reciprocity to MD. CCW permit
holders.

I know. At the time I was not thinking about MD vs PA carry laws. I assumed that since he used the term LTC and not CCW that he was familiar with the issues.

So, for Mr. Lacy to "work" legally in Pa, I RECOMMENDED
he get the Act 235 certification.

Yes you did. I RECOMMENDED he not get it. In part due to whom I was speaking to which is why I mentioned about LE background.

Last but not least, the law states "The Act requires that all
privately employed agents who shall carry lethal weapons
in the course of their duty"

The basic paperwork you need to conduct business as a Bail
Enforcement Agent requires you to have a written authorization
from the surety (bondsman) on the bail bond authorizing the arrest
of the principal and empowering you to act as his agent and
a Contract Agreement for Surety Services.

Correct.

You are an agent of the bondsman to whom you are privately
employed by to capture a fugitive. Therefore, if you choose to
carry a lethal weapon while working under the employ of the
bondsman, you are REQUIRED to be certified by law.

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the law. For reference:

§ 21.2. Mandatory certification.

Privately employed agents, regardless of their place of residence or employers’ location who, as an incidence to their employment, carry a lethal weapon within this Commonwealth. Training schools or instructors shall be certified by the Commissioner prior to engaging in any activity which is regulated by the act.

The phrase "as an incidence to" is key.


Now, the next time you want to answer a post, please investigate
to whom you are responding to before you jump on here and give
bad information.

First thing I did. As I pointed out earlier it's part of why I mentioned background. It doesn't appear to me that he would benefit from the basic instruction that act 235 would provide. Therefore, if not required by state law it would be of no benefit to someone with his background.




As I did in my original reply, I respectfully disagree with your position in regards to who Act 235 applies to. There is no provision that says that working as an agent of a bondsman is unique in terms of Act 235. It all comes down to whether or not you're employer requires you to carry a deadly weapon. It makes no difference whether you're working at a 711, running an errand service, selling cars or running down skips. I will say this, if we're talking about Philly, then all bets are off as that's a different animal and doesn't always follow state law (the city/county that is, not its esteemed agents). If 235 applies to a self employed bail agent, then it applies to every other person who works and carries a firearm out of their own volition. Anyone who has an LTCF can carry a firearm while they work provided that it does not violate company policy or state law in terms of no carry locations. having said that, if someone was contracted as an independent (self employed/1099) agent and the company that contracted him/her said that you must carry a firearm and/or other deadly weapon if you want my business... Hmm.. That's a tough one that I would want to run by a knowledgeable attorney. As a matter of fact probably be best to do that anyway. I'm no expert and barely even have the right to speak about anything even related to the industry apparently.

Mr. Gene (didn't want to use your last name on a public forum and since I may be unknowingly on bad terms with you if you believe I gave you bad information, I didn't want to address you informally), I'm thinking that since you didn't refer to it as CCW you're probably already aware of PA carry laws. I believe it took me about 6 weeks from the time I got my fingerprints and medical clearances in to get approval from the PSP to attend the Act 235 class. The class was held over 2 weekends. I then had to send the PSP $30 to get the actual card which I believe took less than 2 weeks (I kept forgetting to send it in but when I did - 2 weeks).

I do want to point out that although I used the term "deadly weapon" it was in context of Act 235 as a LTCF only covers firearms. We do have prohibited weapons in PA but the're only prohibited when used unlawfully. I am going to highlight the following as there may be people reading this assuming that since they don't carry a firearm this discussion is irrelevant to them. If Act 235 is understood to apply to anyone carrying a firearm while working period, whether or not they are required by their employer, it would also apply to someone carrying anything else that would be considered a deadly weapon such as a baton. You can even get the 235 without a firearms endorsement.

For reference:

Lethal weapons—Include, but are not limited to, firearms and other weapons calculated to produce death or serious bodily harm. A concealed billy club is a lethal weapon. The chemical mace or any similar substance shall not be considered as a lethal weapon for the purposes of the act. For purposes of this chapter, a nonconcealed billy club shall also be considered a lethal weapon.

I also want to emphasize that for those without a LE background (like me) the 235 is of some benefit (you can however get a more advanced/thorough education on these matters from some of the top notch LE/Security trainers we have in PA). The firearms portion is virtually worthless but issues of lethal force, reasonableness standard, court precedents and other bacon saving topics are very important. You might save on insurance as well.

I encourage anyone who may work in PA to explore the following link for their own edification:

Lethal Weapons Training Program

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

_________________
Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.

I must agree with Mr. Marshall on this (though he certainly doesn't need my endorsement!). While I do not live in PA, I am of the strong belief that I should be OVER-certified and OVER-qualified rather than have to pay an attorney and waste my time in a court room having to explain it it to a judge. My time is far more valuable than that! One needs to choose carefully in deciding their battles and which 'hills to die on'.

_________________
Randall Crew
Randall Crew & Associates
641-289-0136

This discussion isn't as simple as having an extra certification or just covering your bases. I'm all for certification and depending on one's background (limited one like mine) people should get all they can. Not only for the actual knowledge but some certs could be the thing that sways a potential employer/client. This Act 235 certification is a unique situation however in that if it is the only thing your counting on to make you legal but in reality you don't fall under its "umbrella" then you're guilty of "firearm to be carried without a license".

Here are 2 scenarios:

1) I get hired as a security guard and carry a gun as "incident to employment"*See examples. I have my 235 card and only carry my gun from my house to my job and back. In this scenario I do not have a LTCF so I'm screwed if I carry my gun any other time other than going to or from my job.

Note: "Incident to employment"

Example A: People tell me I look good in blue shirt. So I wear a blue shirt everyday to up my chances of making a sale at work. My boss doesn't mind that I wear a blue shirt and I am not in violation of any laws by wearing my blue shirts. I am not wearing a blue shirt "as incident to employment".
Example B: My boss likes the way I look in a blue shirt and decides that blue shirts will be the company uniform. My boss mandates that I wear a blue shirt. I now wear a blue shirt "as incident to employment".

Scenario 2) I am an independent contractor who does recovery work. My current client has not required me to be armed while I do my work. I make sure I have my card (under 235 not having your card with you is a summary offense). In this scenario I do not have my LTCF but I have my act 235 card. Things go sideways and I'm informing the LEO that I'm armed. I tell him that I have my act 235 card. He says that he has his 235 card as well and that since I'm not an employee who is required to be armed the 235 doesn't help me in this situation and asks for my LTCF. Doh!

There is a reason that an everyday PA LTCF (License To Carry Firearm) lists employment as one of the "Reasons for carrying a firearm". Even after enactment of 235, the state kept employment as a reason to carry on the application to fill the void between those who were required to carry a gun (act 235) and those who didn't want to carry gun except for when they were working. On the LTCF application it gives 5 reasons with check boxes for the reason to carry:

Self Defense
Target Shooting
Employment
Gun Collecting
Hunting & Fishing
Other (scratching my on this one)

Now if you have an LTCF for hunting and fishing and your in the mall buying Dockers, and you get caught with a gun, your probably going to jail and will lose your limited LTCF and may never get a firearm permit in PA ever again. Same thing with collecting, target shooting and other. I think most here would agree that it would be silly to not just get a self defense permit so you're covered all the time (except for no-go areas of course).

Scenario 3) I'm a courier and my boss doesn't care whether I carry or not so I choose to carry. I apply for my PA LTCF and check employment as the reason for carry. I may carry my gun to and from my work and obviously keep it on my person while performing my duties. If I am caught with my gun at any other time, I'm screwed.

Now why, if Act 235 is required to carry a firearm while working (without being required to by the employer), would the state (with your local sheriff making the decision on your app) make you ask permission to carry while employed in addition to the ACT 235? It doesn't. The LTCF (employment option) is for working armed when being armed is not "incident to employment". Act 235 is for when being armed is "incident to employment".

I believe this discussion is very important to those who may find themselves working in PA. I also believe that due to the language in the ACT, depending on 235 alone to cover you could be a career ending mistake if you are found to not be covered by it under the law. If one has a LTCF (resident/non-resident ) and 235 then no harm no foul. But what happens if someone goes out with their Act 235 card and without a LTCF and works while the language of the act doesn't apply to them? Would the DA tell you to not worry about it since you tried to be legal? A DA would never try to jam up a fugitive recovery agent and disseminate a press release about a "bounty hunter running around without a gun permit" would they?

Just so everybody is perfectly clear. My concern is about being legal, not whether anyone should try and eek by with the minimum amount of training possible (my training although not very substantial, demonstrates that I don't believe in anyone eeking). We do have to use some discretion and determine what is an efficient use of time and resources and what is not (especially when you have an either/or decision and have to pick one training block or another). Actually, one could say that because it had been a while since they were in LE that they felt they should brush up and take a 235 class so depending on the circumstances (narrow as they may be), a 235 could still be of value to someone with a LE background.

The bottom line here is if you want to be armed while in PA, at least get a LTCF (and check self defense for Pete's sake). Of course, ACT 235 as well if it will benefit you in any of the ways previously mentioned. If you believe because I don't have experience in fugitive recovery (I should clarify and say I have not been directed to arrest an individual yet) that I must be wrong, as with anything else of grave importance, be absolutely sure of what you believe and why you believe it. Read, ask others, resolve any ambiguity in legal phrasing and if possible get something in writing from a DA or PSP (good luck).

My first internet argument. Sweet.

Disclaimer: I have both LTCF & Act 235

Also, many recovery jobs around here go to State Constables (Sworn LEO). They need act 235 to moonlight as armed agents but its a different set of circumstances. Although I did complete ACT 49 Basic Training (haven't pursued appointment yet), the focus was on duties under Act 49 and not as an independent agent so I'll differ to actual Constables in that matter.

You're right RCrew but I'll respond later as I have to get going. Mr. Marshall, I'll return the pm when I get back.

_________________
Michael
Allegheny Risk Management
Pittsburgh, PA
Phone: 1-877-366-1872
Fax: 412-202-2330/1-800-817-6701
Insured | Act 235 #46912

1) First off, its INCIDENCE to employment
not INCIDENT. Two diffrerent meanings. You have changed the
words and they do not mean the same thing. INCIDENCE means
extent or frequency of occurrence, which then clearly relates to the
frequent or continual carrying of a lethal weapon in the course of
your duties.

§ 21.1. Definitions.
Privately employed agent:
Any person who is employed for the purpose of providing
watchguard, protective patrol, detective or
criminal investigative services either for another for
a fee or for his employer.

§ 21.2. Mandatory certification.
Privately employed agents, regardless of their place of
residence or employers’ location who, as an incidence to
their employment, carry a lethal weapon within this
Commonwealth.

In case you do not realize this, as a Bail
Enforcement or Fugitive Recovery Agent, you conduct criminal
investigations on wanted fugitives by using the exact same tools a
Privete Investigator or Detective uses. You use legal information
provided by the bondsman, you use court documentation, you use
computer databases, you conduct interviews, etc.

You are contracted by the bondsman to perform a service.
Therefore you are privately employed by the bondsman to conduct
this service. You are providing this service for a fee. This clearly
falls under the law.

2) The law does not state that the employer REQUIRES you to carry
a firearm. The law states those who SHALL carry lethal weapons in
the course of their duty. Why do you not understand the
difference?

3) many recovery jobs around here go to State
Constables (Sworn LEO).

That is completely ILLEGAL for them to do this.


§ 5749. Prohibitions and penalties·

(e) Public officials. --Any law enforcement officer, any
employee of a penal institution, or any other system or related
personnel, who has, directly or indirectly, any pecuniary interest in
or derives any profit from the bonding business or activity of a
professional bondsman commits a summary offense.

Michael, I know you have not worked in the field
yet, and I hope you get to do that soon, and when you start your
first invesigation and (hopefully) capture, I hope you will realize
what it is I am trying to educate you on.

_________________
Heritage and Profession Together

J.G. Marshall
MARSHALL FUGITIVE SERVICE
Lic. # 2008-392
Moderator


Its the Irish in my mind that keeps me sane,
and the Irish in my heart that keeps me strong.