Quote:
they are in a straight jacket"
I am thinking . . . right about . . . . here
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| Who screwed up?? http://fugitiverecovery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10965 |
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| Author: | Outlaw_Recovery [ Sun 02 May 2010 11:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Who screwed up?? |
I had a question about a skip that I got the other night: He was tricked into meeting me, thinking if he paid some more that it would keep him from going into custody. Upon showing up at the office, I came from the dark (from behind him) because he walked past me and didn't notice me. The other bondsman was standing in the back part of the office ( had to get subject as far from the door as possible to keep him from running). I came up behind him with AR in hand, ordered him to the floor. Which he complied with, until the cuffs were going on. Then the fight was on. Subject was hitting us , kicking us, etc. So we proceeded to put a go old fashion butt whipping on him, I was hit in the lip by the individual and he was attempting to escape out the emergency exit ( guess he thought this is a emergency), he wound up breaking the other bondsman's finger nail off (female). I wound up striking the subject with the butt of the AR numerous times to try to get him to comply. Subject was still very combative and the strikes to the head and back with the butt of the AR weren't fazing him much at all. The other bondsman was finally able to grab he cell phone and call 911, while I was still struggling with the subject. Finally I threw the AR across the room and out of anyone's reach and was able to put the subject into a choke hold, were he finally gave up. Managed to get his other wrist cuffed with one of the same cuffs ( as he had 2 sets on, one cuff on each hand). Subject was sweating profusely and bleeding from the head (wonder how that happened). Subject asked me "Sir, would you shake my hand, cause you whipped my a*@."When the local police FINALLY showed up, he was doing whatever I said for him to do and calling me "Sir". The police looked at him and asked him if he was injured (duh) and would like medical attention. The subject said he was ok as a result of the confrontation, but told the local authorities that he had ingested rat poison and ecasty(?sp) and would like to goto the hospital. Medics and a ambulance were called in. Subject was transported to the local hospital. We went there and were told that we could not go into the room because of the medical privacy act. We were informed by the local police to take the process that we had on him to the county and release the subject to the city officers and they would guard the subject and transport him from the hospital to the County detention facility. So we did what we were told to do. 2 days later the subject was finally released from the hospital, where the city officers released him out and let him go home. We found this out by some snitches we have in the area calling and informing us how he was talking crap about how he beat us down. We called and went to the city police department and asked them why they released him, they said they thought it was what they were suppose to do. Did I mention the subject was in the hospital with cuffs and shackles on? They informed us that we would have to catch him again. Luckily we got some assistance from the local police department in apprehending him again. The other bondsman told me "I will never bond out another individual that when I meet them they are in a straight jacket" But my question is who screwed up with this, us or the police department? |
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| Author: | KARMA [ Sun 02 May 2010 15:31 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
Quote: they are in a straight jacket" I am thinking . . . right about . . . . here
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| Author: | Mdbtyhtr [ Sun 02 May 2010 15:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
Wow... Did you ever think that you were going to use an AR in close quarters? If you didn't intend to use it, it just filled your hands and put the both of you in danger of it being used against you, law enforcement or anyone else. I would be curious to read how you critiqued the situation after the fact, because your self critique is what matters to me. Scott |
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| Author: | Outlaw_Recovery [ Sun 02 May 2010 16:34 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
Well I know he was crazy, so no chances were going to be taken. A AR is a awesome weapon, if you are firing it or if you just need to knock them out. We knew what the local police had been up against with this guy before, they wound up having to shoot him. If he would have managed to get out the emergency exit, I was going to pop him in the knee (right where he had been hit before) |
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| Author: | tsuggs [ Sun 02 May 2010 17:02 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
I would remove the last post if I were you. You do not want to have it out in the public that you were willing to shoot an unarmed person simply because he would run on you. I would also re think your apprehension procedures. Yes it is easy to second guess or Monday morning quarterbacking but, if you knew he was such a tough nut, then maybe you should have had a couple of more bigger guys to help out, then there would not have been a need for the AR. A baton or OC spray may have been all you needed. Just second guessing here.  As far as the release goes, if he had a warrant, I would have made sure the PD knew about it and there was a paper trial for chain of custody. |
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| Author: | Outlaw_Recovery [ Sun 02 May 2010 17:26 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
1. He was armed, forgot to mention that one though. 2. We were planning on getting him before over at his mom's house so the oc was still in the vehicle, it was all of a sudden that he wanted to come in and we didn't have but about a 1 minute notice that he was about to be there. We did leave a paper trail. |
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| Author: | AndyL [ Sun 02 May 2010 18:48 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
Just my thoughts. I have an AR and a riot gun, 12ga. I can count on my fingers how many times they have been out. And not one time was it in close quarters. 45 ACP works great in close quarters and you can leave it holstered and whup ass with your hands or baton or whatever if need be. In my opinion, from what Im reading, more planning should be involved and try to use the element of surprise. Once the guy was on the ground, if you didnt have the AR in hand, you could have jumped on his back and put one of many different holds on the guy and he would have never had the chance to fight back. Just my humble opinion. |
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| Author: | RCrew [ Sun 02 May 2010 22:21 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
Certainly I wasn't there so I am not completely aware of all that was going on. With that being said, I have some observations: You stated that your intention was to shoot him in the knee as he was running away out the emergency door. A number of legal questions arise here. Did he point his weapon at you? Were you in fear for your life? Was it possible to determine if there were any other people standing nearby (a high powered rifle round would easily penetrate his knee and possibly continue on to strike someone else)? If not, and you did shoot him I can see his attorney jumping on this one exremely fast! And I have to agree with Andy and Scott. Why utilize an AR in that situation when a .45 or .40 caliber handgun would have been much easier to control and have more actual knock down (foot pounds) power. Again, I am just second guessing here. |
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| Author: | MarshallSvc [ Sun 02 May 2010 23:05 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
the strikes to the head and back with the butt of the AR What class taught you to strike to the head with any weapon, baton etc, this is considered lethal force according to the Force Continuum - Deadly Force (using any force likely to cause permanent injury or death to a subject) I threw the AR across the room and out of anyone's reach You never relenquish your weapon under any circumstance whatsoever!!! put the subject into a choke hold Here again you are using deadly force. I do not know what training you have, but in my training and experience, there are a lot of other effective choices and methods to be used that are less liable. In my opinion, you are very lucky this guy didn't cry to the police about your actions. |
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| Author: | Jayc4929 [ Sun 02 May 2010 23:26 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who screwed up?? |
I know you said he was armed but you also stated that you were prepared to shoot him(with an AR mind you) in the leg if he made it out the exit.Im not trying to jump on the band wagon of questioning your reason but man shooting a fleeing subject is an extremely bad idea.Regardless if the subject was armed or not,now if he turned around and pointed a firearm at you or anyone else i might understand.I also have to agree on the use of that particular weapon in such close quarters,not only do you stand the chance of the subject overpowering you(due to the bulk of the weapon) you also have the chance of your round passing through its target and either hitting your partner or someone else.Even with as you stated"a minutes notice" i believe a smaller weapon could have been used one way or another when safety of your team and the general public should be the biggest concern. As for who was in the wrong on releasing your fugitive...well in my opinion i would have left one of my partners at the hospital with subject untill my client(bondsman) or myself was completely released of that bond.Even than i would make sure there is a rock solid paper trail of as tsuggs stated"chain of custody".Leave no questions in your mind that releasing this man to a LEO will come back and bite you or the bondsman you are working for in the arse. With all due respect,this is only my humble opinion. |
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