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| Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. http://fugitiverecovery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10837 |
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| Author: | bridgezz [ Wed 10 Mar 2010 20:30 ] |
| Post subject: | Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
I know a guy who was hired to locate a skip, apprehend him, bring him back to jail. He had all of the necessary paperwork needed for this in Tennessee. He and his partner spent a week gathering Intel and discovered that he dropped his girlfriend off at work most days. They waited and planned on taking him down in the restaurant parking lot. They notified the sheriff that they were in town looking for this man, and they said okay, call us back if you need help. So, all legal bases are covered. They block the car in, he gets out and escapes after a lengthy foot chase.(to clarify, he did not return to the vehicle, he escaped on foot) Recovery agents go back and speak to girlfriend at restaurant and give her a business card. That night the fugitive calls one of the agents and says there's no way hes coming in, and if you “continue to chase me, it will end badly for someone”. Agent has record of call on cell bill, but its a blocked number. 6 days later fugitive recovery agents just happen to be going by the same restaurant at the right time and see his car parked in the very rear of the parking lot, next to some wasteland. Its a Sunday, maybe 15 cars in parking lot, no actual people hanging around. They block the car in, he gets out and runs. Given the threats on the phone the previous week, one of the agents attempts to taze the fugitive. It misses, he stops, turns to agents and puts hand in pockets and takes something out. Agent fears this could be a gun, agents partner is within 10 feet of fugitive. Agent knows parking lot is empty and that they are well back from the restaurant. Agent fires two warning shots in the air with his glock as he is not absolutely sure that the fugitive is pulling out a gun but wants to take some action.. (to clarify, agent doesnt draw gun initially to fire in the air, he draws gun as he thinks fugitive is going for gun), Fugitive runs, agents follow and once again loose him. No more shots fired after the first two. Foot chase last around twenty minutes. First cops on scene are very helpful and help agent look for fugitive. Agents gives cops business card and ask If they can pursue in vehicle. (to clarify, not to pursue as in car chase, but to drive around area to see if they can spot fugitive)Officer gives permission. Twenty minute later cops call agents and ask them to come back to scene. Agents come back, Sergeant now on Scene. Sergeant pissed off and arrests agent and charges him with Reckless endangerment. Appears to be upset and claims that the agents should have shot the fugitive if they thought he had a weapon and not shot in the air as the bullet could have returned to earth and killed an innocent person. Agents attorney says don't worry, charges will be dropped. Agent goes to court attorney speaks to DA, DA says he would like to drop it, but the arresting Sergeant is adamant that it is taken further. Sergeant takes stand and is either forgetfull as to the details as 3 months have passed, or is purposely untruthful, says parking lot was busy with people and that agents fled the scene. He states that this happened near a small strip mall but fails to mention that out of ten stores, all are vacant except a small sandwich store that had zero customers. The sergeant is also aggressive on the stand with the attorney, the DA, and even the judge at one point. Judge said with the testimony of the cop it has to go to Grand Jury. Agent not allowed to speak at this prelim. Agent now has to stand trial with the possibility of loosing Fugitive Recovery license, and P.I. License, and incarceration. A little further background. After the preliminary hearing, the DA seeks out agent and attorney, shakes agents hand and apologizes, off the record. A cop then comes by, shakes agents hand and tells him, “you are a better man than me, if I was up there, and was you, I would have slugged that cop in the face when he started acting crazy on the stand”..... What do you think of the actions of the agent in this case using the assumption that everything that is posted is %100 accurate and true. This man is a licensed P.I. of three years with no incidents on his record. He is a fugitive recovery agent of two years with over twenty five captures without incident. |
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| Author: | Jayc4929 [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 02:41 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
First of all bridgezz,in my opinion the agent should never have allowed the fugitive to make it back to his vehicle.One reason for that is that the vehicle is considered a weapon and i would rather a fugitive not have a weapon at his or her disposal.As for blocking the fugitive in thats fine if you have no use for your vehicle,meaning that fugitive may back right into it causing serious damage to not only the agents vehicle but possibly any vehicles that may be parked next to the fugitives.Which brings me back to the point i made of not allowing the fugitive to enter the vehicle. Second of all,I am a firm believer in if i unholster my weapon i WILL use it.A firearm is not meant as a tool to frighten anyone.Dont get me wrong i am certainly not a person that just wants to get out and shoot someone,it takes a few steps before i get to the point of unholstering my weapon.I would like nothing more than to not have to fire my weapon but there are times that call for a "ready stance" if you will,meaning firearm drawn,fingure off the trigger,pointed directly at the ground.As i stated though i have every intention on using that firearm if need be and NEVER fire a"warning shot".I do have to agree with the Leo that stated it was reckless endangerment by firing two warning shots into the air.you never know when or were that round is going to come down and what may not be there when the round goes up may just be there when it comes down.Also i have never had a leo give me permission to pursue any of my fugitives,unless of course what you mean by pursue is following closely at a reasonable speed obeying all traffic laws!! I have no doubt that the Sgt. blew this out of proportion in some ways but like i said it is only my opinion that the Leo was correct in attempting to charge agent with reckless endangerment.The person that fires that round is responsible for that round untill it comes to a stop and often times afterwards as well. |
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| Author: | bridgezz [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 08:02 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Jay, this is the kind of response i am looking for thank you. I just want some honest resposnes to the scenario. To confirm a few details. The fugitive was in the car initially and took off on foot when he made the agents. Second, they did have permission from the LEO to go and look again for the fugitve, but not via a car chase. At this point he had escaped up a hill/mountain area. The agents wanted to drive to the back of the hill to watch for him coming down. And finally, per the agent, he wasnt %100 sure the fugitive drew a gun, there was about 20 feet between them. He states that he "thought" he was reaching for a gun, thus he quickly drew his as well. |
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| Author: | reddragon116 [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 10:29 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Warning shots are only good in a combat environment when you have a checkpoint set up, not when you're trying to apprehend them. And what were the DEF.'s charges? I'm all about personal safety and team safety, but, firing off into the air is a no-no. Cops don't even get away with that. What should've happened was the agent draw down and give commands. If he took off running then give chase, the weapon should only come out when it's time to arrange someone's meeting with Jesus. |
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| Author: | rab2344 [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 13:27 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Quote: If he took off running then give chase, the weapon should only come out when it's time to arrange someone's meeting with Jesus. Great line! While I am now working to take my BEA course, I can tell you I have had a conceal permit since the age of 21 and have always carried and I have never had to draw my weapon. I was taught if you draw it - you better be prepared to use it. My father always said the common line "Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6". No offense, but it sounds like the BEA made a bad decision. |
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| Author: | reddragon116 [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 14:02 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
I haven't been in this business too long, but, the few tense moments I've had since I've been in, plus my time in the military, we all can second guess and judge for eons after the event, but when it's crunch time sometimes we have only nano-seconds to make a judgment call. My reason for arguing against the warning shots is mainly because it is not a practice by LE and also only used really in checkpoint operations overseas (to stop a vehicle that may compromise your position). So I think it's good we can discuss this without totally making said BEA/FRA agent feel incompetent, it's a learning experience, thank God no one was hurt - agents and Def. included. |
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| Author: | tsuggs [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 14:54 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Need to know the laws in the state you are operating in. In CA, the same charge would have been filed. Can not discharge a weapon in city limits or any other jurisdiction except under certain conditions. A warning shot is not one of them. We can all second guess the operation but, if someone ran on me before and got away, I would make sure that we had enough feet available to prevent it from happening again. |
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| Author: | bridgezz [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 15:09 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Tony, good post. While i agree that if you are chasing someone who has ran before, you better be prepared, but it is my understanding that they were not in the area that day to apprehend this man. I understand that they were planning surveilance on another case. The place this happpened can be seen from the road, and the fugitive drives a very distinctive car. They saw the car while driving to a different destination. |
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| Author: | BigDave [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 18:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Even though they were just in the area they still approached and reacted on what they saw, which is probably what I would have done, but the fact remains that they KNEW he was going to run therefore they should have been prepared and went hard because the second time around you better believe he's ready.....or maybe they could have planned something immediate where one guy was already near the skip prior to the block in..... Maybe had they anticipated that they weren't ready at that time leave it for another time because obviously it didn't phase him any that you guys almost had him because he returned to the same location.....only this time he was more ready for you guys than the last. Obviously there are many possibilities in this situation but IMHO I probably would have reacted the same way and attempted to do something since he was spotted.....I just would not have taken a "warning shot." In all training I have taken to date that subject is usually touched upon. Never take a warning shot...it is reckless...If you draw your weapon that means you intend to use it if need be. |
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| Author: | Mdbtyhtr [ Thu 11 Mar 2010 18:32 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Post is a little long, but opinions wanted. |
Dave Not to hijack the thread, but great work in DE! Scott |
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