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| Author: | bwheelz05 [ Mon 25 May 2009 09:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Hey. So I ran into the following situation and now I’m just confused: When I went through my certs class we were told that we should have AT MINIMUM; the following documents on hand during the course of a case and especially once the def is apprehended and being booked into jail: 1.) Copy of appearance bond -AND OR- Warrant 2.) Mug shot 3.) Bondsman and BEA contract. So with that said I recently picked up a new case from a bondman in the area and went right over to the Sheriffs office to confirm the info I had the def (I.E name, DOB, CR number, last known address (if any) and FTA warrant) Now the clerk behind the window was one I have never dealt with before. She was an older lady; I waited in line then she called "Next" and I approached the window: "Hi, My name is Bryan Wheeler, I am a Bail Enforcement agent and have a new case in which I need to verify some info with you folks....." I give the clerk the name of the def, DOB and asked for her to verify info. She did, I then asked for a copy of the mug shot.... "It will cost you 2.00"…. "OH?" I said... I told her OK but haven’t ever had to pay for it before.. she said "We all charge"... whatever. I handed her the 2.00 and she gave me the mug shot. I asked her to verify the CR number and she did. I asked her for a print out of the warrant.. she said " Sir, we cant not give out that information to the public!" "Ok" I said (again) I politely asked to speak to the warrants officer and she said "he isn’t here".... I left it at that then left. I called the bondsman and told him what went down, he said try the courts.. I went to the court and pulled the warrant info and all is good... I have my information. Now I was talking to my buddy in WY and told him my day and what had happened with this clerk and he said to me " Why do you need a copy of the warrant? The appearance bond and contract is all you need" I explained to him I would rather have both the appearance bond and warrant because its just one more document to back up who I am and what I'm doing should a question from LE arise. So first question for you folks is..... 1.) Have you come across the same type of problems? How do YOU go about getting your warrant info? Have you had problems with clerks who are to "Dudley Do Rights?" Or do you simply verify the CR number (if you have one) and that’s it? (Not get a copy of the warrant info?) See in the past I simply have asked for this information with the other clerks and they said "Sure, no problem".. I was told by a local LEO that most departments (depends though) DONT consider that info NON_PUBLIC. He said… “If your a BEA, you should be granted the same information that law enforcement has access to .....within reason“. I know there are restrictions such as access to NCIC -- unless you have a friendly LEO who doesn’t mind checking for you. But verse what I was told in my BEA classes to what I’m learning in the field there seems to be different ways to do everything and everyone has a different preference. What is correct and what is not? So far this was the only real case in which I had any problems. How have you folks found it favorable for yourself to get this information with relative ease??? So any help you can give would be great as always Thanks Bryan Wheelz Wheeler |
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| Author: | bail_maker_582 [ Mon 25 May 2009 12:22 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Hey Bryan, I should start by saying that I'm not familiar with the laws and rules of your home state, and can only speak from my experience in Missouri. But without going into some lengthy diatribe about what's public and what's not, let's just start with this simple observation that I'm certain would apply anywhere in this country. Rules may be rules, but rules are subject to interpretation. And there are as many interpretations of any given rule as there are persons interpreting it. In other words, no two SO, police department or court clerks are going to respond the same way to the same request, and don't be surprised if the same clerk gives a different response to the same request on two different occasions. Such is the nature of the beast, and sometimes we just have to do the best we can with what we get. Of course, on those occasions when the information you receive from public sources falls short, it's always nice to have an inside track to other resources. These are relationships you'll build over time, and you should consider them to be a privilege, and treat them accordingly. Remember, these folks are putting their jobs on the line to help you in some cases, so don't use these sources unnecessarily, and don't ever divulge the source or information in such a manner that may cause harm to anyone. And, NEVER, EVER offer "gratuities" for information gained from sources such as these. A favor today for a favor tomorrow is one thing, but anything else is a bribe. I don't have to tell you what that'll get you. These are just my opinions, but I hope it was helpful. |
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| Author: | DMARTZ [ Mon 25 May 2009 15:53 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
As time goes on you will find out the information could change from City to City, County to county, parish to parish, and even clerk to clerk etc. As far as NCIC is up here is police are to sign in and answer question as to why the need for this intel is needed, Vice & Narcotics do not. As i work on cases for vice & narcotics undercover as i can do things that they can not as a PI. It has taken several years and a brother whom is an Air Marshal to get things this way. I never charge the PD or SO up here for various reasons. It will best serve you to get everything you can get a hold of as much paperwork as you can. Especially going g out side your A/O. I have also learned over the years to introduce myself as a private investigator seems to put folk at ease. I understand not all you can do this. |
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| Author: | AndyL [ Mon 25 May 2009 18:41 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
You dont actually need the warrant. You are not a LEO and are not serving a warrant. All you are doing is revoking a bond. In Missouri, and I believe in most places, you need a copy of the bond certified by the clerk. Having said that, I normally get a copy of the warrant. Reason being, most cops dont actually know the law pertaining to us. They may look puzzled at a bond and nod in agreeance when you show a warrant. I have had this happen many times. Even though the warrant does not pertain to us. |
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| Author: | Mdbtyhtr [ Mon 25 May 2009 18:51 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Whhat these gentlemen have told you Bryan is golden. When I teach classes, we have a section called "Scotties Rules" and one of them is "The What Is, Is Rule". Information and "Procedure can change shift to shift for the same department. If you have a cooperative source then don't burn them by telling an uncooperative source that so and so gave me this before, you may get them fired and you shut off completely. This is why how we as Professional BEA's act, and react is so important, as you can have access one day and have another BEA act the fool and everybody loses. As warrants go, they are not public record until they have cured 90 days. If you are the bondsman on the bond, you can get a certified copy, or if you are going out of state to recover an individual and the state you intend to make the apprehension in requires it, you can get a certified copy of the warrant. I have seen these stamped from allot of jurisdictions with caveats...Must be destroyed after 10 days, Certified Copy Only valid the date of signature only etc. Remember, we don't serve warrants, only sworn law enforcement can do so. So if you knock on a door and say you have a warrant, which you don't, as the copy you may have is not executable, you can be charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer. We merely present absconders for warrant service by sworn law enforcement. Best of luck to you. Scott |
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| Author: | bwheelz05 [ Mon 25 May 2009 19:58 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Thanks everyone for the replies: I understand everything said about no bribing, not burning bridges and having a warrant is just an 'in case', to present to LE if needed... I just wanted to know if anyone here has run into the problem I have. Now here’s another question... A lot has been said about the 'certified copy of bail bond' this is acquired by going to 1.) the court clerk -or- 2.) sheriffs office clerk or LE. CORRECT? (here im fortunate enough to have both in the same building) See I go to the sheriffs/courts office and they give me the certified copy without question. BUT I have only worked in the one AO, not anywhere else. So lets say the sheriffs/court office wont do so... court clerk(court) in which the bond originated from can provide this correct? (I'm new, green....don’t chastise me LOL) AND (correct me if I’m wrong and I don’t mean to sound stupid) the 'appearance bond' IS NOT the same thing as the certified copy correct? Or is it really the same thing as the appearance bond but certified from the clerk? So once again thanks for hanging in there with me folks... Its funny what ‘cert school’ tells you then one hears a bunch of different ways to do things when you get into the field. It becomes confusing (I’m sure you all understand) |
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| Author: | AndyL [ Mon 25 May 2009 20:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
We get our certified copies of the bond from the court clerk. I imagine its that way everywhere. |
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| Author: | bwheelz05 [ Mon 25 May 2009 20:38 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Understood... The AO I'm working here has the sheriffs office and court in the same building thus the clerks for both are in the same 'behind the window'' area. I assume now its the court in other AO's that give you the certed copies. (unless the two are combined)  Thanks for the clarification. |
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| Author: | Kathy [ Mon 25 May 2009 23:34 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
The certified bond comes from the court clerk. Most counties charge $10-20 to blue stamp and sign it, which is what makes it certified. They also charge you for the copy that they have to stamp and sign. A certified copy of the bond is only necessary on a revoke, not if the bond is in forfeiture. You do not need the warrant to make an apprehension on a bond. The "Notice of Bail Forfeiture" is what tells the bondsman that his/her defendant has missed court. Apprehending the SIQ is curing the bail forfeiture, not serving a warrant. The jail is going to run the defendant anyway whether or not you have a copy of the warrant. Some counties are almost impossible to get a warrant copy from. Some are easier. Most will charge for it. The only time I bother is if I am travelling out of state, and that is only because it is easier to explain why I am there. A very simple way for anybody to confirm a warrant is on the CO Courts database. It costs $6 per search, but will give you the defendant's full court history in the state. Sometimes the defendant is on more than one bond, has other warrants, or has a history that explains why he/she ran. Sometimes the person is in jail, or has been arrested and/or otherwise rebonded. It also shows aliases, civil suits, divorces, and other information that could be invaluable to an investigation. It is well worth the cost to spend a few minutes on the internet versus the time spent in going to the courts and jails trying to track down the same info. It has also helped me many times in deciding whether to write a bond or pass on it. I spent $6 a few times and saved thousands in not writing bad bonds. Mug shots are another fun thing to get. Some counties have their jail roster online, so when the bondsman pulls up the defendant information to do the bond, they should print the page and the mug shot if it is available at that time. Some counties give them willingly for free or a small charge. Other counties consider them privileged and won't give them at all. Particularly in small counties you need to have some really good relationships with your local LE, jail, and courts. It is easiest if the bondsman takes a picture when the bond is posted. That way they already have it in the file. As to what I carry with me depends on if it is my bond or another agent's. My file contains the defendant app, the cosigner app, the indemnity agreement, signed bond conditions, signed extradition waiver, signed authorization to release requested information, the bond, required receipts, a collateral agreement if any was taken, and of course the notice of bond forfeiture. I usually have a pic, but have been caught trying to get one from the county at times. If I am working for another agent, I get as much paperwork as they have. Unfortunately their files are not usually as complete, so I take what I can get. I also keep a copy of my class completion (the simple one that the state requires, not the nice one) and an authorization from the agent to make an apprehension on his/her behalf. Some will give you an authorization for each file, but the ones' that I do a lot of work for I just get a blanket authorization from that covers any file I am given. Your agency contract with the bondsman should cover that. I have never been asked for my credentials (other than my license when I was posting bonds) or authorization from the bondsman, but since the state says I have to show them if asked, I keep them on me. Much of the info that we post is state specific, but in general it comes from years of experience and you can take it to the bank for what you can learn from it. I learned how to hunt from working the streets with my ex and a couple of bondsmen, and from reading everything on here after I found the forum. I learned how to write good bonds from what I learned while hunting for other bondsmen and from the masters on this forum. I learned what information was vital, and learned how to interpret what I was told. Never take anything at face value. There is always a hidden meaning or knowledge to find. |
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| Author: | bwheelz05 [ Tue 26 May 2009 08:11 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Issues with getting needed info for case... |
Thanks Kathy, So just so I'm absolutely clear... Certified copy of the bond is only needed when the bondsman wants to revoke the bond on the def for what ever reason; and NOT needed for a simple apprehension because of bond forfeiture. (though if you wanted to have it I guess you could still get it )Correct? You folks have been much help... Thanks for you patience and understanding. BW |
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